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Noble Street discipline 'striking, systemic problem'
Misbehavior cannot justify the numbers of students suspended at least once at Noble Street Charter Schools, where fines for minor infractions totaled almost $400,000.
By: Congressman Danny K. Davis / March 30, 2012
When I read the news that Noble Street Charter Schools profited almost $400,000 from fining its low-income students under the guise of discipline, I could hardly believe it. When I learned that Noble suspended 51 percent of all its students, 88 percent of its African American students, and 68 percent of its students with disabilities at least once in one year, I became very concerned.
As a member of Congress, I advocated strongly for the inclusion of detailed discipline questions within the recently-released Civil Rights Data Collection, a sample of schools by the Office of Civil Rights within the U.S. Department of Education. Given the revelation of the Noble Street fees, I examined the data to better understand Noble Street's discipline policies.
I found that in 2009:
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Noble Street suspended 51 percent of its students out of school at least once – almost 3 times the 18 percent rate of Chicago Public Schools (CPS).
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Although Noble Street has a lower percentage of African American students than CPS – only 30 percent in the sample – 53 percent of students suspended at least once were African American. Moreover, nearly all African American students – 88 percent– were suspended out of school at least once, compared to only about one-third of African American students in CPS.
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Noble Street suspended out of school 68 percent of its students with disabilities and 48 percent of its students without disabilities, compared to the respective CPS rates of 38 percent and 15 percent.
These statistics clearly demonstrate a striking, systemic problem with the Noble Street discipline practices. Student misbehavior cannot justify these numbers.
Multiple studies question the effectiveness of punitive school discipline policies that mete out severe penalties for minor infractions, like Noble Street’s. The research is clear that “get tough” approaches to discipline exacerbate academic difficulties for students, increase bad behavior, and fail to address underlying issues that lead to behavioral infractions.
Multiple policies could help address the systemic discipline problems at Noble Street and other schools. At the local level, CPS should closely scrutinize the discipline policies at its schools and integrate such issues into its charter renewal policies. I am pleased that Schools CEO Jean-Claude Brizard has affirmed his dedication to engaging students in developing positive behavior and reducing suspensions and other actions that remove students from the classroom and reduce learning.
At the state level, the Illinois State Board of Education should include discipline within the state longitudinal data set. At the federal level, I will continue to push legislation to make schools safer, more-effective learning environments for students by promoting school-wide, evidence-based approaches to address discipline and improve school safety – approaches collectively known as Positive Behavioral Interventions and Supports.
I agree with Secretary of Education Arne Duncan who said that education is this generation’s civil rights issue. Understanding the nature of discipline used and whether schools disproportionately discipline certain groups of students and reduce their learning time is critical to understanding if we are providing equal access to education. I trust that Chicago Public Schools, the mayor of Chicago, and the Illinois State Board of Education will take steps to ensure that Noble Street and all CPS schools meet this requirement.
U.S Congressman Danny K. Davis represents the 7th District of Illinois.
Noble Street's discipline
Thank you Mr. Davis for coming out to make a statement about the unsettling punitive discipline practices of Noble Street. They should not call themselves public schools. Public schools serve all children living within its boundaries. I don't want my tax dollars going to a school that suspends and expels kids at such an alarming rate. I want my tax dollars going to schools that do the best they can to teach all the kids living in their neighborhood.
Kids who get suspending are more likely to get failing grades, and the descent into despair begins. They're more likely to get expelled or transferred, more likely to drop out, more likely to commit crime, and more likely to go to jail. And we all know we spend some $40,000 a year per prison inmate.
Let us not promote a school system that segregates at-risk students from Honors students. Let us integrate our children and celebrate their diversity.
I'm particularly upset about
the Asian school girl problem.
This group receives suspiciously few disciplinary infractions. So few in fact that the rate of discipline is often zero.
These small, often quiet females are clearly manipulating the system to their benefit. Males of all races are disciplined at much higher rates.
Clearly the only explanation for statistical variation by race and gender is discrimination.
I'm thrilled Rep. Davis will be calling on the equal treatment of ALL boys and young men in school. It's about time we put those smug Asian school girls in their place.
Model Minority Myth
I think the above post displays the poster's racial insensitivity, and willingness to perpetuate harmful racial stereotypes in a petty attempt to win a debate.
Facts, or lack thereof
These are strong accusations. Please provide how this data was obtained. There are no references to support this skewed data. Opinions are fair game but to support opinions with unfounded facts is reckless and cowardly.
You should work for Fox News
Your choice of words was astounding!
For instance: "When I read the news that Noble Street Charter Schools profited almost $400,000 from fining its low-income students under the guise of discipline"
Profited! Noble does not profit from the students having to pay a fee for detention. The fees don't cover the cost of running the detentions. If the fees don't cover the cost of detentions there is no profit.
Fined! The students are not fined. It is a fee that students' parents agree to pay upon receipt of a detention.
Guise of Discipline! There is no guise of discipline, there is discipline. That is why the students from the Noble Network are so successful both during their time at Noble and their time after. The Noble Network has increased its average ACT score (And passed the CPS average), while increasing enrollment. The same can't be said for CPS.
At the end of the day, families are fighting for a chance for their children to attend one of these schools.
You are supposed to represent what is in the best interest of this state's citizens. You and the majority of your colleagues have consistently failed to do that. Look at the state of Illinois' budget. Look at the state of crime in Chicago. Look at the effectiveness of CPS as an educational institution.
Better yet, look how CPS is over paying for milk, to the tune of $700k a year, because a connected family setup the contract.
http://www.suntimes.com/11494048-417/milk-money-clout-heavy-family-got-1...
I am a OEF Vet, and an ex Illinois National Guardsmen (Honorably Separated). I am ashamed to have you as a representative for for the citizens I took an oath to protect.
Absolutely false claims, incorrect data
This is a flat-out unfounded attack. The numbers quoted by Congressman Davis are baseless. I don't know where he found this information (he does not cite his source) but they are incorrect. Shame on him.
one fact is true
Noble uses public funds
and they allowed a ducmentary company to make that false progpaganda documentary "Tale of two missions"...they started it...it was filled with lies about public school teachrs and never gave them a chance. they portrayed cps teachers like russian anacrchists. this is a fact...so maybe you need to watch the documentary that portrays themselves as almost perfect. they NEVER mentioned the fines??? tey nevr interiewed ONtaher or prncipal at any other school. you might what to ask yourself....where is the truth on both sides????
edited One fact is true
Noble uses public funds
and they allowed a documentary company to make that false propaganda documentary "Tale of two missions"...they started it...it was filled with lies about public school teachers and never gave them a chance. they portrayed cps teachers like Russian anarchists. this is a fact...so maybe you need to watch the documentary that portrays themselves as almost perfect. they NEVER mentioned the fines??? they never interviewed ONE teacher or Principal at any other school. you might what to ask yourself....where is the truth on both sides???? Any truly educated person would never allow this film to be shown as a true argument. if it were a high school paper it would get a zero for no citations! Noble needs to get it's facts straight too! It also featured the mayor...which makes it even more disturbing!!
Model Minority Myth?
If Rep. Davis wants to fairly promote policy by the use of statistics, he must use all the data. The department of education data show strong correlations between disciplinary actions and race and gender. He can conclude that blacks, and especially black males, are treated unfairly. The data equally supports that all students, except asian females, are treated unfairly.
Arnie Duncan rightly suggests that this data should spur schools and policy makers to take a closer look at potential biases . But Rep. Davis's analysis is neither thoughtful or detailed.
How does one even address Rep Davis's criticism of Noble as having harder discipline and higher standards than CPS? That difference is intentional and a key component of a system that produces superb results. It's also an optional choice for parents.
With opinions like this from elected officials I no longer wonder why schools are so ineffective at pulling children out of poverty.
Data accusations
Thanks for your feedback. Congressman Davis cited the source of his data and we have no reason to believe it is incorrect. If there is data to counter his claim, feel free to write an op-ed and submit to us for publication.
If Nobel's charters gets to do this so too shuold all other CPSs
No! Not allowed--then it should not be allowed at Nobel. Nobel MUST keep all their students and work with them and parents just like CPSs. Nobel gets PAID by tax dollars--it is a public school. Other CPSs have detention and no one is PAID for this. Use city/state money better Nobel--just like neighborhood public schools have too!
This is cute.
"Fined! The students are not fined. It is a fee that students' parents agree to pay upon receipt of a detention."
Yes, and I am not "fined" for running a red light, either. I agree to pay a fee upon receipt of a ticket for a moving violation while driving.
But Disappointed Vet is right. Discipline is everything. High school in particular is more about learning discipline and responsibility than anything else. In that regard, Noble is highly successful.
Given that success, I'd like to see traditional schools adopt Noble's discipline policies - including the ability to expel students without due process, something currently prohibited by law in traditional schools.
Public schools need not be for everyone. They should only be for those who have the family support and personal fortitude and integrity to make it through a zero tolerance environment. Otherwise, too many good kids get left behind.
Lunch
Every year a few kids in my room get a letter from the school they have to pay for lunch. They dont even pay for this? 2.00 a week...they arent forced to pay? They still get their free lunch. We tell parents they must write letters of absence...they dont do it. Parents must come to conferences...they dont come...Yet the kid still gets to come to school.
It is a whole different story at CPS public.
The same extreme Rahm that says we must not "impose" on the poor students and familes.....sing the praises of Noble for thier fines? He is a classic hypo-critic classic!! When are Rahm and Brizzard gonna say "listen parents" we have take almost all of the teachers rights and union protections away...NOW it's your turn to do your part??? DO you think he ever would say this?? I doubt it!! Blame the teachers...it's easier!
Lunch
I'm confused how this is a criticism of Noble?
Parents choose between a higher expectation/ less inclusive school (Noble) and lower expectation/ more inclusive CPS.
The systems are intentionally designed to be different. CPS inclusion benefits both youth and society by keeping students in school, even at a low level of performance. Noble benefits families that can tolerate and adjust to much higher expectations.
Isn't this a good thing?
Shouldn't we expect a school that can dramatically change the academic trajectory of many typical CPS schools to have unusually strong expectations and accountability?
I don't know what Nobel does with parents of students who are not paying as expected for lunch. But I expect it is different than CPS, as everyone involved has chosen a different path.
A teacher in Chicago wanting to work in an environment with meaningfully higher parental accountability is arguably pro school choice. There's no realistic scenario for that improvement, other than parents voluntarily enrolling in an optional high expectations school.
I have no idea how rep. Davis came to expect that a school like Nobel would be comparable to CPS discipline averages. Or why he would believe it's wise to intervene by making Noble more like CPS.
BOTTOM
The bottom line is Noble Uses Public funds.....if we CPS teachers could use Noble tactics we would. This is my beef....Rahm tells us to be like Noble...but he won't let us fine students or kick students out?He wants to use the Noble Model al over the city...but there arent enough private money to support it. I dont care what Noble does...I want them to succeed...but please rahm dont compare apples to oranges...and Noble dont make Documentaries with ZERO citations to their claims about teachers!!! Like I said they started it! I had no problem with noble until i saw thier propaganda video that vilidied CPS teacehrs! ALL CPS TEACHERS
Just defending myself!! They are attacking a fellow school...when they should be helping CPS teachers when they know how students and education can be!! Why did they make that video????
@Don
Yea, that's the problem with the education system, we're not suspending enough Asian girls! Get those crazy Asian girls under control and we've fixed the system!!! Forget trying to close achievement gaps and improving the schools! Let's not stop at suspending them, we should round them all up and throw them in jail, because that will fix the disproportionality in prisons too! Why didn't anyone else think of that?
Hahahahah....
This is really
upsetting to see. I can assure you that no race or person of disability has been or is being targeted at Noble. I am an alum and I can say I never got suspended and none of my African American friends were targeted but they were suspended as were those other race friends that had broken the rules enough times to be suspended. The bottom line is those who seek to advance the progress of us minorities,(I am Hispanic American) by trying to make it seem as if we are being discriminated against though we are not, are really not helping at all. If we made everything about race, we would not get anywhere since every little thing needs to be catered to all. Although it should be catering to us all, it is more impressive that we can succeed in spite of the many barriers we face and we should only be questioning racial issues when we are clearly told you can't do this because you are race x,y, or z. Also, if a student from race x is disciplined, and he is the only student from race x this article apparently claims that anyone from race x should be outraged since I have now suspended the entire race x population. This is very misleading and I expect better from any congressman who misuses facts to try to sell a point not just Danny Davis.
NOBLE GREATNESS!!!
EXCUSE ME! Have you had the opportunity in visiting the school?
Noble Street College Prep has the highest graduation rate in Chicago Pubic Schools. How does it accomplish that? DISCIPLINE!
The reason noble has high suspension rates is due to the fact of CHOICE!!! C-H-O-I-C-E! Students make the CHOICE in misbehaving. After Noble enforces a four demerit warning to the student. Noble lists the rules and it is up to the student to follow it or disobey and pay for the consequences.
This type of enforcement has led Noble Street College Prep to become one of the most successful Chicago Public Schools in the city and it is still growing!
Suspension does not equal more crime! There is no correlation. It is absurd!!! Discipline code instilled in the school led to high graduation rates.What does this mean? It means that more students are getting accepted to colleges. How? DUH!! Because of their outstanding behavior, academic achievements, and scholarly actions they are BREAKING more low-income statistics and norms. OBVIOUSLY!!! This does not hurt them but makes them more prepared for college AND life!!!
One last note, do not try to make this about a racism issue. High suspension rates is not correlated with race. This does not make sense. Try to stick with the argument on education and discipline code.
Therefore, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND you visit any of the campuses. Because it does not sound that you have.
Choice?
CPS regular students have their choice too! However, CPS doesnt and will not allow us to inforce our own rules! High Suspension rates are a negative in NCLB?
Documentary
I agree people are being harsh on Noble...but we are just bloggers. What makes me mad is why the Director and Mayor said such untrue things in their documentary Tale of Two Missions. It's one thing for regular guys like you and I to argue in a blog, but when the Mayor and Director of Noble Schools made a political documentary that blatantly portrayed ALL cps teachers like militant money hungry lazy anarchists, I think we have a right to be upset. And I mean ALL teachers. They didn't interview one teacher! Actually, according to CPS rules teachers aren't even supposed to involve themselves in political stories like this documentary. I assuming Noble isn't' supposed to either (since they use CPS's public money) . Their goal is to simply take away collective bargaining rights.
This was government sponsored anti union propaganda that was given the blessing of Mr. Emanuel and the Director of Noble. They, in my opinion, are in the same category as Gov Walker of Wisconsin for their anti union stance that had absolutely no citations or facts. Especially a "Democrat" mayor.
So....we must defend ourselves! Please watch the video! Then tell me who is really showing true bias! Again, its one thing for you and I to argue about the benefits of Noble, however it's another when a director of a school partakes in anti union rhetoric and when a democratic mayor demeans the very people people who helped put him in his office! We want the students to do well of course. Noble does a good job, but what is their end game?? Make all schools like some type of Dictatorship with no teacher rights for union representation? Running a strict school doesn't mean you are entitled to take away union rights away from our teachers.
Here is the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy3Nq8GZlhE
You're forgetting what a charter school is CHOICE poster!
It sounds to me like your a student at the school, which I can respect, but you have to look at the data.
A charter school is an experiment in education. It is supposed to offer a different platform with innovative ways of teaching students. The minute Noble starts claiming success, they need to back it up with legitimate data.
As it stands, Noble's retention rates are terrible. How can a school show off about high test scores and college acceptance when they lose half their kids?
Now, if the school is pushing kids out to improve student achievement, that's exclusion. They are SELECTING which students "deserve" to be promoted and stay in the Noble system. I don't want my tax dollars supporting this kind of funny business. Especially not when so many public schools that are forced to take in EVERY student and not charge them detention fees.
I think it is great that some students benefited from Noble. But, I know plenty of students who didn't. I remember several speaking at a CPS rally about "corruption" and the like.
On a last note, you cannot say this issue is not relevant to race. Education, as a whole, is broken. And, it hurts low-income and minority families the most. I do not think playing the race card is a smart move, but you cannot ignore the issue of race entirely
I work for a Charter school
I work for a Charter school that is in direct competition with Noble. We're getting our butts' whooped. Noble has its act together. The unflinching discipline is the key to the students' success.
Noble is not willing to sacrifice its students' education because little Timmy can't stop drumming on a desk or because Jane is under the impression that talking about her boyfriend's new hair cut is more important than English class. Students ARE NOT allowed to disrupt the learning environment. There is no reason to do so. Done. No arguing.
Learning happens every single day because not learning is not an option.
To Jim: let's say the 50% statistics is true (it's not, but let's pretend). If you had 100 students and 50 were misbehaving to the point that it was disrupting the other 50 students' education, is it wrong to remove the misbehaving students (detention, suspension whatever) in order to insure the rest of the students have a successful learning process? Or is it better to let all 100 students receive a mediocre education?
I am not okay with allowing 100% of the students to receive a mediocre education because people are afraid of removing (in whatever manner) students who disrupt learning through negative behaviors.
remove?
Find me ONE teacher who wants a disruptive student in their class. I have kids tell me they want to kill me, bring knives, miss 30 days of school, do no homework, throw desks, punch kids. However, we keep getting them back! Teachers have ZERO contol over this! Please dont act like CPS teachers want disruptive kids. Tell Duncan and Brizzard...they say we are"too harsh" on students. We have to honor their civil rights....I think charters dont have to????
Listen to what you are saying
First off - my statistic is a ballpark estimate which is pretty close according to several sources. If the school would just post these numbers then no one would have to speculate.
Second - I hear your argument about having a classroom with 20 great students. A good teacher can probably cover 1.5 years worth of material (in 1 year) in that situation. HOWEVER, that's not what a charter school should be. They are supposed to be non-selective. What you are describing is a selective school.
If Noble didn't take public funding, I would be applauding them. But, that's not the case. Why is it that this school has the luxury of only keeping the brightest students? Why are my tax dollars only benefiting SOME of the students in the community?
This model cannot work everywhere, and it shouldn't be growing on my tax dollars. The poster above me is right in that many teachers deal with the "troubled students" because they have to (and hopefully want to at least try to make a difference).
If Noble wants to say its greatest discovery is that it can produce results by pushing out under-performing students then by all means go for it.
Should be?
The tax dollar argument is nonsense. Are you proposing closing Northside? What a charter "should be" is in the law establishing charters, and in the charter agreement.
The benefit of school choice for parents is having schools with differing features.
As a person who went to this
As a person who went to this school, I must put it out there that when a student tries to transfer out, Noble actually works hard against this. A student in my advisory was so set on transferring but Noble convinced him to stay.
only results (based on real figures) count!
Noble has SEVEN of the top ten highest performing high school within Chicago. The average ACT score at Noble is 20.3 and 17.2 at CPS. The average instructional hours at Noble consist of 1,280 hours and ONLY 873 hours at CPS. 85% of Noble’s 2011 class enrolled in college with 78% of them being first generation college students. Integrate all this with a strong and effective disciplinary program and you have success! As a parent, the CHOICE is easy! I thank CPS for what it is doing but it is NOT ENOUGH!! All I ask of CPS is to show me results and not excuses! Let your numbers speak and not your excuses!
Fact based parent check you "facts"
What are Noble's retention rates? from freshman year to senior year
It's really easy to cherry pick the best students and let them carry a high average test score
But Noble cripples the system by dumping almost as many students as it "serves"
Look at the board of cps officials - and the mayor - they all have profit minded intentions and have no shame in using our already broken system
will Mr. Milkie send his kids to Noble? Will the mayor?
Same lies, but some interesting statistics
Noble street doesn't have 7 of the 10 highest performing high schools.
They have 7 of the top ten if you leave Noble St. schools as the only selective enrollment schools in the list. (They do not use test scores, but they do use an application and contract process to select students.)
Given the longer school day, and the selective nature of the school, Noble's test scores look relatively low.
Furthermore, Noble loses nearly half of their freshmen class by senior year, so if 85% of their students are college bound, we are talking about 40%+.
Their "strong and effective" disciplinary program compounds this by pushing out non-compliant students with fines for disobeying.
There are things that Noble does well, but it's more about selection and compliance than mastery and proponents seem to make a lot of false comparisons.
Please let your figures/facts speak...
Thank you for your reply but show me your numbers/facts. You quote that "Noble loses nearly half of their freshmen class by senior year" but you don't state where and who provided this number. Please prove this statement correct by figures/facts and not hearsay. If you can prove that CPS performs somewhat close to Noble, then I be a CPS follower. But for now, I will not follow blindly.
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