For Or Against Retaining Students? Apparently my Ed Next article on the continuation of Chicago's social promotion ban is being revisited in light of NYC Chancellor Klein's recent announcement that he is ending social promotion even more than he already did -- most notably by one George Schmidt (read here). George tries hard to find fault with my reporting and analysis, but in this case at least makes more mistakes than he finds. He misses the main point of the piece (I'm explaining, not defending, student retention), and doesn't even realize that he's reading something written more than three years ago (Retaining Retention).
All that aside, what do you think? Would you rather go back to the old days? Has it gotten better or worse in the way it's implemented over the past 10 years -- in terms of who's held back and what happens to them? Does it have any effect on the kids who don't want to be retained? How has the modified system worked, with the school-based input and the appeals process?
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Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 11:17 PM
For Or Against Retaining Students?
why CPS only retains in 3rd, 6th and 8th grades? I think any child in any grade not cutting the mustard should be retained. The focus should not just be on these parents but ALL parents. I have a third grader who by his report card won't be retained but I have no idea (although I'm pretty sure his ISAT's will be OK) why the parent's of these grades have to be more stressed out than the parents of other grades. Someone please explain the logic!!!
Thu Mar 27, 2008 at 5:47 AM
For Or Against Retaining Students?
Why as a student do I want to do anything during the regular school year? When I can attend summer school for 6 or 8 weeks do the required work and pass the test. (Much easier during summer school - food, friends, and no homework).
Give us one chance and we will preform - You teacher need to push us. Demand more from your students
Give us one chance and we will preform - You teacher need to push us. Demand more from your students
Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 8:31 AM
For Or Against Retaining Students?
In one regard I am in favor of demanding students are accountable in order to be promoted. I teach 7th grade at a school that retains students who don't pass and I have several students who have been making excellent progress with not being retained as their sole motivation. Most students in my class find motivation from themselves, or their parents, or even me. However, for some this is the only thing that seems to do it.
On the other hand we're getting older and old students in grammar schools as a result and what that does is to cause a lot of high school problems to trickle down into the junior highs. I see both a good side and a bad side to retaining kids.
On the other hand we're getting older and old students in grammar schools as a result and what that does is to cause a lot of high school problems to trickle down into the junior highs. I see both a good side and a bad side to retaining kids.
Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 8:10 PM
For Or Against Retaining Students?
It hasn't worked and doesn't work. Every time it's been tried, it's been a political publicity stunt (from New York's "Gates" 30 years ago to the Vallas/Daley stuff).
One of the basic fallacies is that every child should be "achieving" at a certain "level" on a secret multiple choice so-called "standardized" test. If your "bottom line" is fallacious, everything that flows from it has the same taint.
One of the basic fallacies is that every child should be "achieving" at a certain "level" on a secret multiple choice so-called "standardized" test. If your "bottom line" is fallacious, everything that flows from it has the same taint.
Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 2:23 PM
For Or Against Retaining Students?
I am generally opposed to retaining students, but as long as we have a high-stakes system for students, could we make those stakes correspond to real-world consequences? Right now 6th grade is a retention year, but 7th grade is the year that counts for high school admission.
If retention is a threat that gets kids and parents to sit up and take notice, could we deploy that threat in 7th grade, when kids need to do their best to have a shot at a decent high school?
If we must have a flawed system--retention and a Darwinian high school entrance system--at least we could align the flaws!
If retention is a threat that gets kids and parents to sit up and take notice, could we deploy that threat in 7th grade, when kids need to do their best to have a shot at a decent high school?
If we must have a flawed system--retention and a Darwinian high school entrance system--at least we could align the flaws!
Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 2:32 PM
For Or Against Retaining Students?
"If retention is a threat that gets kids and parents to sit up and take notice, could we deploy that threat in 7th grade, when kids need to do their best to have a shot at a decent high school?"
Kids who have a chance at being retained in 7th grade wouldn't have a shot at a decent high school anyway.
Kids who have a chance at being retained in 7th grade wouldn't have a shot at a decent high school anyway.
Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 3:47 PM
For Or Against Retaining Students?
7th grade is the better retention and move 6th grade to 5th for CPS. This would spread out retetions better and allow for catchup, but this is too sound for CPS to do!
Then stop all the hoopla with 8th grade greaduation activities. if you really want high school to be important--use the real scores from ISAT for 8th grade--put retention at 7th and no graduation ceremony! Graduation should be when you finish high school--period. Not 8th grade--they have no job like my grandmother did when she finished 8th grade. Do the ceremony in high school at the end of senior year.!
Then stop all the hoopla with 8th grade greaduation activities. if you really want high school to be important--use the real scores from ISAT for 8th grade--put retention at 7th and no graduation ceremony! Graduation should be when you finish high school--period. Not 8th grade--they have no job like my grandmother did when she finished 8th grade. Do the ceremony in high school at the end of senior year.!
Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 5:42 PM
For Or Against Retaining Students?
Here's a novel idea... Why don't we hire companies that can score the dang tests and get results back to us sooner than 6 months after the kids take the test and retain at every year. If a kid hasn't learned how to read a stop sign by the end of 2nd grade, he needs to be in 2nd grade again. If a kid can't use a calculator to multiply by 5th grade, he should probably be in 5th grade again.
Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 9:38 PM
For Or Against Retaining Students?
You can retain an elementary child at any grade if he/she has an "F" in reading or math or has 18 days of unexcused absences.
Retention needs to be done in first or second grade sometimes solely for maturation. There is no point in passing primary students who can not read. They will not catch up and it is demoralizung for them to sit in classes with books they can not read. Early intervention is paramount but we have many new teachers in the primary grdaes who simply have no clue as to how to teach reading.
Then we have CPS who is trying to lower the retention/referral rate by pushing an idiotic program called differenciated instruction. Everyone will pass because every child works at their own level-even if it is below grade level It is very sad-no ISAT for 1st and 2nd graders. The DIBELS is given by the classroom teacher and is not always accurate especially if the teacher is trying to gain tenure. Where are the checks and balances in the primary grades?
Retention needs to be done in first or second grade sometimes solely for maturation. There is no point in passing primary students who can not read. They will not catch up and it is demoralizung for them to sit in classes with books they can not read. Early intervention is paramount but we have many new teachers in the primary grdaes who simply have no clue as to how to teach reading.
Then we have CPS who is trying to lower the retention/referral rate by pushing an idiotic program called differenciated instruction. Everyone will pass because every child works at their own level-even if it is below grade level It is very sad-no ISAT for 1st and 2nd graders. The DIBELS is given by the classroom teacher and is not always accurate especially if the teacher is trying to gain tenure. Where are the checks and balances in the primary grades?
Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 11:17 PM
For Or Against Retaining Students?
My son was retained in first grade. At the time I did not support
the retention and ended up putting up with it instead. Although there
were programs at his home school I ended up paying out of pocket for individualized reading instruction at a park district program.
The program ended up being more than effective and he has always had high quality teachers,he ended up with an old fashionedbut hip much experienced phonics teacher who went out of her way to help both of us. He is currently in high school and while he will never sit down and read Moby Dick for pleasure,he is
a functional reader,a bright young man and has done his best.
I personally do not believe in retention as I feel the effects are
long term and while my son has recovered from his early experiences in the short term,the damage has been done.
While he was also in a pullout program for occupational therapy,
he was in a way special-edded but not segregated has always been mainstreamed -the old fashioned word,but still has knowledge that at the time he was in fact a bit different. As a family, we have
moved on and both realize that you utilize your experiences to maximize your own human potential. This is hopefully and supposedly the reason we are all on the planet! At any rate,he is getting through high school and doing relatively o.k.
I do think that all of us still need to work harder on modeling care and compassion towards one other even if we are working with a public system.
I am aware of the problems that we are all facing on a daily basis,
as just getting up in the morning is a feat unto itself.
I am hopeful as if you loose your own motivation there is no way
you can support your child's motivation.
I am hopeful that all of us can keep going with the current situation
in the schools throughout the nation. I personally would volunteer
my time to work one on one with each family that was feeling hurt,
cheated or disenfranchised just so that people could be relaxed settled and happy and their child had a chance to relax, be happy and succeed as I am aware that there appear to be some situations
where a child is retained,goes to summer school and still has to repeat the grade. This is neither fair or justice for the child because that child has already made up his mind how he has done and how he will continue to do and while some students rise to the occaision, many do not.
By the way,I am also a special education teacher and while I love my work , I feel horrible for the families when all this comes up and
make it my own personal responsibility to model and show compassion and care as the first lessons I had in teacher college were those of Brown vs. the Board vs The Board of Education,and
Piaget-integration ,accomodation and assimilation.
the retention and ended up putting up with it instead. Although there
were programs at his home school I ended up paying out of pocket for individualized reading instruction at a park district program.
The program ended up being more than effective and he has always had high quality teachers,he ended up with an old fashionedbut hip much experienced phonics teacher who went out of her way to help both of us. He is currently in high school and while he will never sit down and read Moby Dick for pleasure,he is
a functional reader,a bright young man and has done his best.
I personally do not believe in retention as I feel the effects are
long term and while my son has recovered from his early experiences in the short term,the damage has been done.
While he was also in a pullout program for occupational therapy,
he was in a way special-edded but not segregated has always been mainstreamed -the old fashioned word,but still has knowledge that at the time he was in fact a bit different. As a family, we have
moved on and both realize that you utilize your experiences to maximize your own human potential. This is hopefully and supposedly the reason we are all on the planet! At any rate,he is getting through high school and doing relatively o.k.
I do think that all of us still need to work harder on modeling care and compassion towards one other even if we are working with a public system.
I am aware of the problems that we are all facing on a daily basis,
as just getting up in the morning is a feat unto itself.
I am hopeful as if you loose your own motivation there is no way
you can support your child's motivation.
I am hopeful that all of us can keep going with the current situation
in the schools throughout the nation. I personally would volunteer
my time to work one on one with each family that was feeling hurt,
cheated or disenfranchised just so that people could be relaxed settled and happy and their child had a chance to relax, be happy and succeed as I am aware that there appear to be some situations
where a child is retained,goes to summer school and still has to repeat the grade. This is neither fair or justice for the child because that child has already made up his mind how he has done and how he will continue to do and while some students rise to the occaision, many do not.
By the way,I am also a special education teacher and while I love my work , I feel horrible for the families when all this comes up and
make it my own personal responsibility to model and show compassion and care as the first lessons I had in teacher college were those of Brown vs. the Board vs The Board of Education,and
Piaget-integration ,accomodation and assimilation.
Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 3:06 AM
For Or Against Retaining Students?
"...Here's a novel idea... Why don't we hire companies that can score the dang tests and get results back to us sooner than 6 months after the kids take the test and retain at every year. If a kid hasn't learned how to read a stop sign by the end of 2nd grade, he needs to be in 2nd grade again..." (Novel idea, yesterday).
Actually, this idea is not so novel.
Before the Miracle began in 1995 with the arrival of Paul Vallas and Richard M. Daley, CPS had a very professional scanning operation that could turn around all tests within two weeks, vet for unusual patterns ("cheating" in many cases), and get meaningful results to principals and teachers. During the testing season (usually, April and May), demand was great, so everyone knew how to work the materials quickly, with overtime. They even hired interns to scrape the problem particles from the answer sheets before scanning. (Anyone who's looked closely at the goop that gets on kids' papers knows what I'm talking about. They were nicknamed the "booger scrapers").
It worked. Every year, there would be a few schools (or even individual teachers) who were caught possibly cheating. The operation had an audit function that would retest the classrooms (or school) using a different form on the same test, on a couple of hours notice. If the data were truly "clean," no problem. If not, something was done.
With the miracle, we got massive privatization. Some of that scanning and other equipment is probably still sitting at the fifth floor of 1819 W. Pershing Road, with mice or pigeons living in it.
The whole privatization thing was a scam, more theology than practical public policy. So today everyone pays ten times as much (my estimate, based on the numbers I've seen) for services we were getting more efficiently (and usefully) from workers in-house 13 years ago.
But had we maintained the integrity of our evaluation, research, and financial audit systems, we could never have proclaimed the Miracle. And what fun would that have been?
Actually, this idea is not so novel.
Before the Miracle began in 1995 with the arrival of Paul Vallas and Richard M. Daley, CPS had a very professional scanning operation that could turn around all tests within two weeks, vet for unusual patterns ("cheating" in many cases), and get meaningful results to principals and teachers. During the testing season (usually, April and May), demand was great, so everyone knew how to work the materials quickly, with overtime. They even hired interns to scrape the problem particles from the answer sheets before scanning. (Anyone who's looked closely at the goop that gets on kids' papers knows what I'm talking about. They were nicknamed the "booger scrapers").
It worked. Every year, there would be a few schools (or even individual teachers) who were caught possibly cheating. The operation had an audit function that would retest the classrooms (or school) using a different form on the same test, on a couple of hours notice. If the data were truly "clean," no problem. If not, something was done.
With the miracle, we got massive privatization. Some of that scanning and other equipment is probably still sitting at the fifth floor of 1819 W. Pershing Road, with mice or pigeons living in it.
The whole privatization thing was a scam, more theology than practical public policy. So today everyone pays ten times as much (my estimate, based on the numbers I've seen) for services we were getting more efficiently (and usefully) from workers in-house 13 years ago.
But had we maintained the integrity of our evaluation, research, and financial audit systems, we could never have proclaimed the Miracle. And what fun would that have been?
Tue Apr 1, 2008 at 11:33 AM
For Or Against Retaining Students?
So retention is bad? If a product on an assembly line (calm down, I know that kids are not assembly line products) is bad shouldn't it be taken from the line and fixed, so it functions as it should? The problem with retention in bad school systems, is bad, useless retention with no real help. Third grade is too late. Seventh grade is too late. It must be done before kindergarten, maybe even before conception.
