Willing To Work For $125,000?
This guy, Zeke Vanderhoek, will pay teachers $125K at a new school being set up in a poor Dominican part of Manhattan.
Yes, a charter. Yes, New York City. Yes, a tough gig to get (hundreds of applications so far). Yes, the guy made his money creating a successful test prep and tutoring company -- and never even went to public school (me neither, BTW).
Cross-posted from TWIE.
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Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 11:36 AM
Willing To Work For $125,000?
I am all for paying effective teachers more money, comparable to other professional fields. However, Mr. Vanderhoek's plan will not improve the talent of teaching, instead it will only divert good teachers already working in a needy school to his own. According to his plan, a teacher must first demonstrate evidence of their effectiveness as a teacher before they can be hired, preferably in a similar school to his own. So only teachers who can earn 125G's would be super teachers already working in an inner city school.
Only way to attract better talent into teaching is to raise the starting salary. If a new teacher would earn $50,000 - $60,000, school districts will have plethora of would be teachers with advanced degrees in science and mathematics.
Only way to attract better talent into teaching is to raise the starting salary. If a new teacher would earn $50,000 - $60,000, school districts will have plethora of would be teachers with advanced degrees in science and mathematics.
Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 2:36 PM
Willing To Work For $125,000?
Okay - I have to say that since my children are in CPS I've started paying attention to teachers pay, among other issues. I'm just in shock are the complaints and discussion over teachers pay and benefits. I've got a great job and I'm not complaining. Still I get have the education and experience comparable to a teacher at my age and I get paid the same with less time off, less insurance benefits, less job protection, no personal days, a financial return expectation and no guaranteed raise for longevity or extra training. I'm not complaining about my job - I love it - I think I'm lucky - How come the teachers feel so slighted?
When you are talking about public school teachers teaching in schools where 80%+ of the students qualify for subsidized lunches (as with the school my children attend - and my kids are those children) I kind of find the argument offensive. I'm not a teacher but I am a taxpayer and I really think we need to find teachers who like teaching and realize that the bulk of their students parents and their students are never going to earn $125,000/year with the benefits they have! Better pay doesn't guarantee a fit with the job - you have to hire people who fit in with the culture of the job - let's reframe the context of what teachers "deserve" - Let's look at merit pay with a higher ceiling, no tenure and a focus on a more positive work environment.
Just a thought.
When you are talking about public school teachers teaching in schools where 80%+ of the students qualify for subsidized lunches (as with the school my children attend - and my kids are those children) I kind of find the argument offensive. I'm not a teacher but I am a taxpayer and I really think we need to find teachers who like teaching and realize that the bulk of their students parents and their students are never going to earn $125,000/year with the benefits they have! Better pay doesn't guarantee a fit with the job - you have to hire people who fit in with the culture of the job - let's reframe the context of what teachers "deserve" - Let's look at merit pay with a higher ceiling, no tenure and a focus on a more positive work environment.
Just a thought.
Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 2:53 PM
Willing To Work For $125,000?
Hey "...not a teacher,"
I do understand where you are coming from. Teachers only work 9 months out of the year and tend to get the majority of federal holidays off. Teachers are members of relatively strong (if incompetent) unions, usually have good benefits packages and the starting pay is, in many cities, similar to what your average straight-out-of-college, 23-year-old would expect to make.
However, until you've tried teaching in the type of school you're talking about, you really can't even begin to understand how mentally, emotionally and physically draining it is to be a teacher...especially in the first few years. A good teacher, in their first few years, is working at least 10-12 hours a day and another 6-8 hours or more on the weekends. They get ten minute lunches and can't walk over to their neighbor's cubicle or office to talk about what they watched on TV last night when they feel like they need a break. Imagine being an actor on stage for seven hours straight with a sometimes hostile and needy crowd, half of whom feel impossible to engage, and keep in mind that your responsibility isn't to entertain them, but to prepare them to live a successful life.
And teaching is also a career with little to no room for promotion or significant raises (at least for those who want to maintain direct contact with students, rather than bureaucracy). So while one may start at the bottom of the ladder in a law firm making less than $50k a year, they know by that the end of their career they can easily be making a 6-figure salary. Meanwhile someone who has been teaching for 20 years is making maybe $30-40k more than when they started.
I don't know if The Equity Project will work or not. It's certainly doesn't look like a sustainable project at a larger scale at this point in time. But if it succeeds, it will at least bring attention to the fact that we need to improve teacher compensation if we truly want the best and brightest teaching our children.
I do understand where you are coming from. Teachers only work 9 months out of the year and tend to get the majority of federal holidays off. Teachers are members of relatively strong (if incompetent) unions, usually have good benefits packages and the starting pay is, in many cities, similar to what your average straight-out-of-college, 23-year-old would expect to make.
However, until you've tried teaching in the type of school you're talking about, you really can't even begin to understand how mentally, emotionally and physically draining it is to be a teacher...especially in the first few years. A good teacher, in their first few years, is working at least 10-12 hours a day and another 6-8 hours or more on the weekends. They get ten minute lunches and can't walk over to their neighbor's cubicle or office to talk about what they watched on TV last night when they feel like they need a break. Imagine being an actor on stage for seven hours straight with a sometimes hostile and needy crowd, half of whom feel impossible to engage, and keep in mind that your responsibility isn't to entertain them, but to prepare them to live a successful life.
And teaching is also a career with little to no room for promotion or significant raises (at least for those who want to maintain direct contact with students, rather than bureaucracy). So while one may start at the bottom of the ladder in a law firm making less than $50k a year, they know by that the end of their career they can easily be making a 6-figure salary. Meanwhile someone who has been teaching for 20 years is making maybe $30-40k more than when they started.
I don't know if The Equity Project will work or not. It's certainly doesn't look like a sustainable project at a larger scale at this point in time. But if it succeeds, it will at least bring attention to the fact that we need to improve teacher compensation if we truly want the best and brightest teaching our children.
Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 3:15 PM
Willing To Work For $125,000?
Charlie - I don't think we disagree. I really do understand what you're talking about. Trust me, when I think about becoming a teacher, I know I can't do it - because I wouldn't enjoy it and therefore wouldn't be good. But that is the point - if you hate being a teacher, don't do it - period - don't do it for the money. If we start to pay teachers so that it is a lucrative career, we end up with the doctors we have now. Doctors who know just how to put in the time to earn a doctors salary but not enough time to heal people (I know what I'm talking about here too). (Does that make sense?) In any case, I think we are coming from the same place because I would love to see the BEST teachers making $125,000 (or more) I just don't believe that teachers should be incentivized for showing up for a tough job. Frankly, like I mentioned, if you aren't getting anything more than a big paycheck out of a job - then you should be looking elsewhere.
Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 4:13 PM
Willing To Work For $125,000?
...not a teacher,
Re: Your shock
Poorly articulated complaining and irritating whining aside, it is hardly unreasonable for CPS teachers to desire pay that is equal to that of our peers in the Chicago metro area. When someone in the neighborhood with equal training, education, work experience, and expertise earns 20% more under better working conditions, feeling slighted isn't exactly an outrageous reaction. And working conditions in CPS are far below the surrounding areas; teachers do not flock to other school districts merely for the pay.
Re: $125k in New York
As much as some hate to admit it money talks. I have no doubt that the NY school will find outstanding teachers. Even in communities of low socio-economic status, expert educators have a tremendously positive impact. And, as in most parts of the work force, the best and brightest are often drawn to well paid jobs with excellent working conditions. CPS and NYC in general obviously don't fit those criteria. I agree with Charlie that $125/year salaries just doesn't seem sustainable without radical changes in education funding.
While you find it offensive that educators strive for higher pay and improved working conditions when 80%+ of the students qualify for subsidized lunches, I find it offensive that the city of Chicago, the state legislature, and the citizens of Illinois believe those same students simply do not deserve opportunities equal to students of wealthier families in the suburbs. Paying teachers equitably is only part of a long list of what needs to be remedied to improve CPS.
Re: Your shock
Poorly articulated complaining and irritating whining aside, it is hardly unreasonable for CPS teachers to desire pay that is equal to that of our peers in the Chicago metro area. When someone in the neighborhood with equal training, education, work experience, and expertise earns 20% more under better working conditions, feeling slighted isn't exactly an outrageous reaction. And working conditions in CPS are far below the surrounding areas; teachers do not flock to other school districts merely for the pay.
Re: $125k in New York
As much as some hate to admit it money talks. I have no doubt that the NY school will find outstanding teachers. Even in communities of low socio-economic status, expert educators have a tremendously positive impact. And, as in most parts of the work force, the best and brightest are often drawn to well paid jobs with excellent working conditions. CPS and NYC in general obviously don't fit those criteria. I agree with Charlie that $125/year salaries just doesn't seem sustainable without radical changes in education funding.
While you find it offensive that educators strive for higher pay and improved working conditions when 80%+ of the students qualify for subsidized lunches, I find it offensive that the city of Chicago, the state legislature, and the citizens of Illinois believe those same students simply do not deserve opportunities equal to students of wealthier families in the suburbs. Paying teachers equitably is only part of a long list of what needs to be remedied to improve CPS.
Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 4:24 PM
Willing To Work For $125,000?
Re: Hiring people who fit the culture of the job
Pray tell, what is the culture of the job of educating?
To take your argument to an extreme, why not require teachers to volunteer their time? If teachers volunteer then schools will be staffed by those who care so deeply about educating young people that they will make the necessary sacrifices. Silliness aside, in the real world, companies pay more and provide better working conditions for the best and brightest. CPS (and the education world in general) professes to want the best and brightest but won't pony up; it is no wonder CPS performs poorly.
Re: merit pay
What do you think teachers deserve?
I'm not necessarily opposed to merit pay, but I have yet to see a proposal that would appropriately distribute that merit pay based on "performance". I would much rather see merit pay provided to teachers a) who work in underprivileged areas where working conditions are crap and students desperately need top teachers and b) who are evaluated effectively enough to determine true merit. Teacher evaluation is not rocket science, but test scores are not a meaningful arbiter of student learning or expert teaching. Teachers, students, and parents know who the top teachers are in a given building. And it has little, if anything, to do with ISAT, PSAE, ACT, or any other purportedly "standardized" exam. Merit pay isn't the evil some teachers claim it to be, but its current incarnation poorly conceived.
Re: no tenure and a positive work environment
Tenure is wildly misunderstood by the masses. There is nothing about tenure that results in a guaranteed job. Tenure is merely a process, mutually agreed upon by the Union and CPS, by which a veteran teacher may be dismissed. Crap teachers should, and can, be fired. I'm not sure what people think would be accomplished by eliminating tenure.
Sorry for the lengthy blather.
Pray tell, what is the culture of the job of educating?
To take your argument to an extreme, why not require teachers to volunteer their time? If teachers volunteer then schools will be staffed by those who care so deeply about educating young people that they will make the necessary sacrifices. Silliness aside, in the real world, companies pay more and provide better working conditions for the best and brightest. CPS (and the education world in general) professes to want the best and brightest but won't pony up; it is no wonder CPS performs poorly.
Re: merit pay
What do you think teachers deserve?
I'm not necessarily opposed to merit pay, but I have yet to see a proposal that would appropriately distribute that merit pay based on "performance". I would much rather see merit pay provided to teachers a) who work in underprivileged areas where working conditions are crap and students desperately need top teachers and b) who are evaluated effectively enough to determine true merit. Teacher evaluation is not rocket science, but test scores are not a meaningful arbiter of student learning or expert teaching. Teachers, students, and parents know who the top teachers are in a given building. And it has little, if anything, to do with ISAT, PSAE, ACT, or any other purportedly "standardized" exam. Merit pay isn't the evil some teachers claim it to be, but its current incarnation poorly conceived.
Re: no tenure and a positive work environment
Tenure is wildly misunderstood by the masses. There is nothing about tenure that results in a guaranteed job. Tenure is merely a process, mutually agreed upon by the Union and CPS, by which a veteran teacher may be dismissed. Crap teachers should, and can, be fired. I'm not sure what people think would be accomplished by eliminating tenure.
Sorry for the lengthy blather.
Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 8:12 PM
Willing To Work For $125,000?
Ooo, I have such mixed feelings about this subject!! When I was teaching in CPS and complained to friends about long hours or grading all Sunday, I got "but you have your summers off!" When I complained about my pay, they'd say "You knew teaching paid squat when you went into it!" When I lamented about the apathy of my students' parents, they'd say, "So teach in the 'burbs where the parents are on your ass all of the time-they call YOU, not the other way around."
I know, I know--I should have had better friends!
But you know, there was some truth to what they were saying. With the exception of knowing teaching doesn't pay squat--a 20 year old declaring a major has no real idea of what a mortgage, car payment, what life costs in general.
And now that I'm out of the field, I realize there are plenty of perks to teaching I didn't even know there were. For example, if my boss asks me to stay late to finish a project, I have to stay late. All those days off--Pulaski Day? --I need to either take off with a personal day or hire a babysitter. Take a day off? The work I missed when I was gone has to be done when I get back--I have no "sub" to fill in for me (I realize teachers grade whatever they left--IF they left anything--I subbed for many years too).
And if I don't do my job--not the minimum, but a bang up job, I run the risk of being replaced by someone smarter, faster, better. My boss owes me nothing.
I totally agree with Charlie about teaching being beyond compare with other professions on emotional, physical, and mental levels. That has more to do with how our schools are being run than the "profession" itself. That's also, probably, why teaching shouldn't be seen as a life long career--I KNOW this goes against our tightly-held vision of our kids having the kindergartener teacher WE had, but most people these days change professions several times in a lifetime--and that may be a good thing. Still weighing that one though...
I know plenty of teachers--esp. the ones who knew they wanted to teach since 1st grade--for whom teaching was NOT what they expected, but had no idea what else was "out there"--so they stayed. And I also knew plenty of teachers who prefered teaching in the city because provided they do a less-than-stellar job and no one would be the wiser, they had great job security, and they could get out the door at 3pm.
The fact is, it is difficult to easily and systematically "prove" a teacher is doing his/her job, and I hate to suggest MORE standardized testing, but something like the NWEA, which a lot of suburbs use, tests kids in fall and again in spring--and growth should be seen. It's not like expecting John who started out at the 25% to be hitting 50%, but we--parents, adminstrators, teachers themselves--should see an increase after 6 months, no? Sure you're going to have the kid who struggled despite differentiation, the one who makes no gains for no apparent reason, the one who had a rough year--but in general, there should be tangible growth by most students, right?
Again, I'm not 100% on any "side" here--I just know that so many teachers go into the profession for the wrong reasons--and quite frankly, a love a literature is not enough when you have 15 our of 28 freshmen who can't read past a 4th grade level.
On the other hand, I don't want my 5th-grader-reading-at-a-10th grade level taught by some automon who knows curriculum but has no passion.
We need to rethink education from the ground up...
I know, I know--I should have had better friends!
But you know, there was some truth to what they were saying. With the exception of knowing teaching doesn't pay squat--a 20 year old declaring a major has no real idea of what a mortgage, car payment, what life costs in general.
And now that I'm out of the field, I realize there are plenty of perks to teaching I didn't even know there were. For example, if my boss asks me to stay late to finish a project, I have to stay late. All those days off--Pulaski Day? --I need to either take off with a personal day or hire a babysitter. Take a day off? The work I missed when I was gone has to be done when I get back--I have no "sub" to fill in for me (I realize teachers grade whatever they left--IF they left anything--I subbed for many years too).
And if I don't do my job--not the minimum, but a bang up job, I run the risk of being replaced by someone smarter, faster, better. My boss owes me nothing.
I totally agree with Charlie about teaching being beyond compare with other professions on emotional, physical, and mental levels. That has more to do with how our schools are being run than the "profession" itself. That's also, probably, why teaching shouldn't be seen as a life long career--I KNOW this goes against our tightly-held vision of our kids having the kindergartener teacher WE had, but most people these days change professions several times in a lifetime--and that may be a good thing. Still weighing that one though...
I know plenty of teachers--esp. the ones who knew they wanted to teach since 1st grade--for whom teaching was NOT what they expected, but had no idea what else was "out there"--so they stayed. And I also knew plenty of teachers who prefered teaching in the city because provided they do a less-than-stellar job and no one would be the wiser, they had great job security, and they could get out the door at 3pm.
The fact is, it is difficult to easily and systematically "prove" a teacher is doing his/her job, and I hate to suggest MORE standardized testing, but something like the NWEA, which a lot of suburbs use, tests kids in fall and again in spring--and growth should be seen. It's not like expecting John who started out at the 25% to be hitting 50%, but we--parents, adminstrators, teachers themselves--should see an increase after 6 months, no? Sure you're going to have the kid who struggled despite differentiation, the one who makes no gains for no apparent reason, the one who had a rough year--but in general, there should be tangible growth by most students, right?
Again, I'm not 100% on any "side" here--I just know that so many teachers go into the profession for the wrong reasons--and quite frankly, a love a literature is not enough when you have 15 our of 28 freshmen who can't read past a 4th grade level.
On the other hand, I don't want my 5th-grader-reading-at-a-10th grade level taught by some automon who knows curriculum but has no passion.
We need to rethink education from the ground up...
Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 9:15 PM
To Rodentface & Ms. G
Rodentface - I need to know more about pay in the suburbs.
I do understand your argument about poor working conditions and "hazard pay" - but that approach is old and frankly doesn't work. Check pay nationwide and not just in Chicago - many of the states that have the best performing students do NOT offer the best pay. Based on what I know of life experience (I lived on $12,000 one year and managed to rent a great apartment with a roommate, owned a car, and paid my students loans) people who complain about money are complaining about something else ("working conditions in CPS are far below the surrounding areas"/ "test scores are not a meaningful arbiter of student learning or expert teaching"/ "companies pay more and provide better working conditions for the best and brightest"?)
To me it seems a simple argument of the grass is greener.
That said - definitely fill me in on suburban pay scales? All Suburbs? Where do their funds come from? Truly interested. Can you point me to where I can find those budget figures?
Also - sounds like you were starting to articulate a plan for merit pay. Please elaborate - open to ideas.
Tenure - I guess I do not understand the concept of tenure in CPS. Can you please explain the process for dismissing tenured teachers? Does the city then have to pay for a lawyers on both sides if that is challenged? Curious.
Also - why do you refer to yourself as "Rodentface"? I'm clearly missing something here.
BTW - I don't (didn't) mean to offend: just stimulate some discussion that needs to be addressed at a societal level and not just on a district blog.
By the way - I understand that money is a way that people feel recognized and appreciated in our society. I don't blame anyone for wanting hire pay - just the system and quite frankly the assumption that your pay is out of line with the rest of society - particularly the areas where you teach.
Ms. G.:
I always find your insight refreshing. Even if you don't want to take a side! Thanks for backing me up in regards to my argument about jobs outside of CPS.
Just to reinforce the point- I started working for a start up about 10 years ago. For two years, I worked 7 days a week 8 - 15 hours a day (seriously) and took one week of vacation. I got yelled at by my boss and clients. I didn't own a car. I rented a studio apartment in an undesirable area of town, I worked in a building with bad heat and no windows but I didn't sit there just thinking about how things could be so much better if someone just really appreciated what I was doing. I felt rewarded by the service I was providing. I felt lucky to have a job where I where I had input. Call me crazy - I love this rugged individual thing! I doubt that I will ever make over $100,000/year but I am rich in spirit. I love what I do. I don't feel slighted because other people who do the same thing as I do get paid more - I work harder to get my standards (client base) up to theirs and if I don't, well - I still love my job!
All who teach/taught:
I also (again) do understand about the mental, physical and emotional stress of teaching but you really are crazy to think that that doesn't exist in other jobs. I'm just saying - consider your place in society not just among your suburban peers and the "lawyers" - you might not find yourself as bad off as you think.
I do understand your argument about poor working conditions and "hazard pay" - but that approach is old and frankly doesn't work. Check pay nationwide and not just in Chicago - many of the states that have the best performing students do NOT offer the best pay. Based on what I know of life experience (I lived on $12,000 one year and managed to rent a great apartment with a roommate, owned a car, and paid my students loans) people who complain about money are complaining about something else ("working conditions in CPS are far below the surrounding areas"/ "test scores are not a meaningful arbiter of student learning or expert teaching"/ "companies pay more and provide better working conditions for the best and brightest"?)
To me it seems a simple argument of the grass is greener.
That said - definitely fill me in on suburban pay scales? All Suburbs? Where do their funds come from? Truly interested. Can you point me to where I can find those budget figures?
Also - sounds like you were starting to articulate a plan for merit pay. Please elaborate - open to ideas.
Tenure - I guess I do not understand the concept of tenure in CPS. Can you please explain the process for dismissing tenured teachers? Does the city then have to pay for a lawyers on both sides if that is challenged? Curious.
Also - why do you refer to yourself as "Rodentface"? I'm clearly missing something here.
BTW - I don't (didn't) mean to offend: just stimulate some discussion that needs to be addressed at a societal level and not just on a district blog.
By the way - I understand that money is a way that people feel recognized and appreciated in our society. I don't blame anyone for wanting hire pay - just the system and quite frankly the assumption that your pay is out of line with the rest of society - particularly the areas where you teach.
Ms. G.:
I always find your insight refreshing. Even if you don't want to take a side! Thanks for backing me up in regards to my argument about jobs outside of CPS.
Just to reinforce the point- I started working for a start up about 10 years ago. For two years, I worked 7 days a week 8 - 15 hours a day (seriously) and took one week of vacation. I got yelled at by my boss and clients. I didn't own a car. I rented a studio apartment in an undesirable area of town, I worked in a building with bad heat and no windows but I didn't sit there just thinking about how things could be so much better if someone just really appreciated what I was doing. I felt rewarded by the service I was providing. I felt lucky to have a job where I where I had input. Call me crazy - I love this rugged individual thing! I doubt that I will ever make over $100,000/year but I am rich in spirit. I love what I do. I don't feel slighted because other people who do the same thing as I do get paid more - I work harder to get my standards (client base) up to theirs and if I don't, well - I still love my job!
All who teach/taught:
I also (again) do understand about the mental, physical and emotional stress of teaching but you really are crazy to think that that doesn't exist in other jobs. I'm just saying - consider your place in society not just among your suburban peers and the "lawyers" - you might not find yourself as bad off as you think.
Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 10:41 PM
Willing To Work For $125,000?
You can have a pretty stress free union job for $120,000. You just have to sell your soul to me.
The grass is always greener......
The grass is always greener......
Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 10:44 PM
Willing To Work For $125,000?
Hi Admittedly,
I'm not offended by anything you've posted. Not one bit. And I appreciate your willingness and ability to engage thoughtfully about the issues before us.
Re: poor working conditions and "hazard pay" - but that approach is old and frankly doesn't work.
In what large, urban, poverty-stricken district have teachers been paid more than the surrounding, wealthier suburbs? To my knowledge it has never been done, but I'd be pleased as punch to be proven wrong. Hazard pay isn't really the crux of the issue for me. It has more to do with the fact that the weakest students, no matter why they struggle, benefit the most from the best teachers. There is a convincing body of research that shows outstanding teachers have a significant and measurable impact on student achievement regardless of students' socio-economic status.
So, how might CPS go about hiring and retaining those top notch teachers? Unfortunately, CPS does literally nothing to attract the best educators. For some reason truly fabulous teachers, as a group, are not flocking to CPS. Higher pay, in my opinion, is answer #1 because it's relatively simple and the vast majority of workers respond powerfully to it. Effective administration, safer communities and schools, infrastructure improvements, greater technological capabilities, and other working condition issues (even basic ones like heat and air conditioning) are much more complicated, but they should be addressed, too.
Don't get me wrong, I never intended to complain about money. Like most others I didn't go into teaching to strike it rich. I make a lovely living working a job with boatloads of perks that pays enough to provide for home ownership, a reasonable lifestyle, and darn good job security despite the 50+ school closings to come in the next 5 years.
While not necessarily conclusive, TheChampion, no friend to educators, lists salaries for public school teachers based on data provided by school districts. Choose a teacher with X years of experience, Y & Z qualifications and education, and it won't take long to find salary discrepancies between CPS and other surrounding districts. Starting salaries in CPS are reasonably competitive. But 5 years into teaching salary differences with nearly all the suburbs kick in and get worse every year. There is little, if any, incentive - monetary or otherwise - for the best teachers to stay in CPS as veterans. Also keep in mind that CPS teachers are the only educators in Illinois with a mandatory residency requirement.
In Illinois, funding for education comes in large part from property taxes. You can find a decent and referenced, though slightly dated, overview of school funding inequity here. Illinois is near last among the 50 states in education funding. You can view CPS salary schedules here. Other teacher union websites will probably have similar information. You can also compare test scores, expenditures, teacher experience, student demographics, and darn near anything else between two or more choices of schools or districts on NIU's Illinois Interactive Report Card website.
Re: tenure
The steps for dismissal of an unsatisfactory tenured teacher can be found in Article 39-5 of the most recent collective bargaining agreement between the CTU and CPS. The relevant Illinois statute (ILCS 24/A-5) can be read here.
I'll save my thoughts on merit pay for a more relevant thread topic. But I too am open to plenty of alternatives.
Rodentface is just my online pseudonym - there's nothing to it beyond a self-deprecating inside joke I share with friends. Well, that and the fact that I have a rodent face.
I'm not offended by anything you've posted. Not one bit. And I appreciate your willingness and ability to engage thoughtfully about the issues before us.
Re: poor working conditions and "hazard pay" - but that approach is old and frankly doesn't work.
In what large, urban, poverty-stricken district have teachers been paid more than the surrounding, wealthier suburbs? To my knowledge it has never been done, but I'd be pleased as punch to be proven wrong. Hazard pay isn't really the crux of the issue for me. It has more to do with the fact that the weakest students, no matter why they struggle, benefit the most from the best teachers. There is a convincing body of research that shows outstanding teachers have a significant and measurable impact on student achievement regardless of students' socio-economic status.
So, how might CPS go about hiring and retaining those top notch teachers? Unfortunately, CPS does literally nothing to attract the best educators. For some reason truly fabulous teachers, as a group, are not flocking to CPS. Higher pay, in my opinion, is answer #1 because it's relatively simple and the vast majority of workers respond powerfully to it. Effective administration, safer communities and schools, infrastructure improvements, greater technological capabilities, and other working condition issues (even basic ones like heat and air conditioning) are much more complicated, but they should be addressed, too.
Don't get me wrong, I never intended to complain about money. Like most others I didn't go into teaching to strike it rich. I make a lovely living working a job with boatloads of perks that pays enough to provide for home ownership, a reasonable lifestyle, and darn good job security despite the 50+ school closings to come in the next 5 years.
While not necessarily conclusive, TheChampion, no friend to educators, lists salaries for public school teachers based on data provided by school districts. Choose a teacher with X years of experience, Y & Z qualifications and education, and it won't take long to find salary discrepancies between CPS and other surrounding districts. Starting salaries in CPS are reasonably competitive. But 5 years into teaching salary differences with nearly all the suburbs kick in and get worse every year. There is little, if any, incentive - monetary or otherwise - for the best teachers to stay in CPS as veterans. Also keep in mind that CPS teachers are the only educators in Illinois with a mandatory residency requirement.
In Illinois, funding for education comes in large part from property taxes. You can find a decent and referenced, though slightly dated, overview of school funding inequity here. Illinois is near last among the 50 states in education funding. You can view CPS salary schedules here. Other teacher union websites will probably have similar information. You can also compare test scores, expenditures, teacher experience, student demographics, and darn near anything else between two or more choices of schools or districts on NIU's Illinois Interactive Report Card website.
Re: tenure
The steps for dismissal of an unsatisfactory tenured teacher can be found in Article 39-5 of the most recent collective bargaining agreement between the CTU and CPS. The relevant Illinois statute (ILCS 24/A-5) can be read here.
I'll save my thoughts on merit pay for a more relevant thread topic. But I too am open to plenty of alternatives.
Rodentface is just my online pseudonym - there's nothing to it beyond a self-deprecating inside joke I share with friends. Well, that and the fact that I have a rodent face.
Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 4:05 PM
Willing To Work For $125,000?
Having left the corporate environment with a BA from a top tier institution and then got an MEd from another one I understand the fact that there are many compensations that teachers get that one doesn't receive in other careers. A couple things to think about though. If you need to go to the bathroom do you have to get someone to watch your clients? If you have a cold, can you slow down and take it easy for a say? If you want paper, or a pens or hundreds of books for your clients to read, do you purchase those things or have to write a lengthy grant to receive them?
I agree that I get summers off, but I use them to stay abreast of the latest research so I can meet the needs of my urban students. I am done with school earlier than 5 pm and I know that other professions require you to bring work home but will your clients cry the next day if you don't grade their writiting?
I am all for only having teachers that love to teach and have passion. There are too many in CPS that lack that. But for those of us that have that, are good at our professions and are educated well above what typical teacher compensation offers it would be nice to receive compensation in line with my worth. I don't mean how many years I have been teaching; I mean my worth as a professional regardless of tenure or time spent in the classroom.
I agree that I get summers off, but I use them to stay abreast of the latest research so I can meet the needs of my urban students. I am done with school earlier than 5 pm and I know that other professions require you to bring work home but will your clients cry the next day if you don't grade their writiting?
I am all for only having teachers that love to teach and have passion. There are too many in CPS that lack that. But for those of us that have that, are good at our professions and are educated well above what typical teacher compensation offers it would be nice to receive compensation in line with my worth. I don't mean how many years I have been teaching; I mean my worth as a professional regardless of tenure or time spent in the classroom.
Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 6:01 PM
Support that!
Again - I do support teachers who are great teachers earning as much as it is feasible to pay them. And I do back getting more funding all around for schools!
But again, no if I'm in the middle of a conference call - I don't go to the bathroom at all. When I do go to the bathroom, of course, I have to have someone cover me. If I have a cold I can't slow down and I probably have to go to work no matter how sick I am because I have NO designated sick or personal days. When I do need to urgently take a day, I have to reserve it to be home with my children when they are sick or have a holiday off such as Presidents Day, Pulaski Day, Columbus Day or a teacher's development day when I can't find outside care. And then I need approval from my boss who will deny that time if it not convenient to the business - I wouldn't even think of asking for that time if I know my clients will urgently need me. I buy the office coffee and Kleenex, use my own computer on the road, paper for the work I do when I get home and then I get notes from teachers who need supplies at school so I buy paper towels, markers, glue, paper, soap et cetera from them. If I want to buy anything on behalf of my client I have to justify it in paperwork and if there is an error, I must make someone else eat it or eat that cost myself. If I don't get my work dones on deadline I risk losing a portion of my income as my income is directly tied to my performance daily. I also risk having clients yell, curse or cry (all have happened). Also, I work weekends with no comp days and if my flight gets delayed (as will often happen) it doesn't matter if I get home at 7:00 PM or 4:00 AM in the morning - I have to get my children prepped for school and be to work by 8:30 AM to work until 5:30 PM or until my work is done but I must pick my children up by 6:00 PM or face fines because it's not fair that anyone should have to stay past the pre-set pick-up time. Again - I couldn't be a teacher - don't have the passion and applaud those that do but most of the private sector jobs aren't half as cush as you seem to think.
Please don't take this as a personal attack as you sound like an awesome teacher and I applaud you. Just was a little taken aback personally, since so many of the things you threw out to think about were things I don't like about my job either!
But again, no if I'm in the middle of a conference call - I don't go to the bathroom at all. When I do go to the bathroom, of course, I have to have someone cover me. If I have a cold I can't slow down and I probably have to go to work no matter how sick I am because I have NO designated sick or personal days. When I do need to urgently take a day, I have to reserve it to be home with my children when they are sick or have a holiday off such as Presidents Day, Pulaski Day, Columbus Day or a teacher's development day when I can't find outside care. And then I need approval from my boss who will deny that time if it not convenient to the business - I wouldn't even think of asking for that time if I know my clients will urgently need me. I buy the office coffee and Kleenex, use my own computer on the road, paper for the work I do when I get home and then I get notes from teachers who need supplies at school so I buy paper towels, markers, glue, paper, soap et cetera from them. If I want to buy anything on behalf of my client I have to justify it in paperwork and if there is an error, I must make someone else eat it or eat that cost myself. If I don't get my work dones on deadline I risk losing a portion of my income as my income is directly tied to my performance daily. I also risk having clients yell, curse or cry (all have happened). Also, I work weekends with no comp days and if my flight gets delayed (as will often happen) it doesn't matter if I get home at 7:00 PM or 4:00 AM in the morning - I have to get my children prepped for school and be to work by 8:30 AM to work until 5:30 PM or until my work is done but I must pick my children up by 6:00 PM or face fines because it's not fair that anyone should have to stay past the pre-set pick-up time. Again - I couldn't be a teacher - don't have the passion and applaud those that do but most of the private sector jobs aren't half as cush as you seem to think.
Please don't take this as a personal attack as you sound like an awesome teacher and I applaud you. Just was a little taken aback personally, since so many of the things you threw out to think about were things I don't like about my job either!
Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 9:58 AM
Willing To Work For $125,000?
Admittedly...
I've been on both sides of the fence for an equal amount of time, and trust me, the grass IS greener.
Education is arguably the most important factor in improving society today. Recently read that when the Gates Foundation was deciding how they would give away their money in the US they did a couple years worth of research to figure out what area would be the most effective for making a long-term societal impact, they came up with education.
As a nation, we mis-spend billions and billions of dollars on reactive programs like prisons, welfare, medicare and wars. The one area we can leverage to reduce spending in many of those areas later: education. Students who finish high school are so much less likely to end up in prison or on the streets. Not to mention they make about $1million more in their lifetime which goes right back into the US economy instead of coming out of our tax dollars in the form of welfare or prison upkeep.
I'm saying that other professions don't have their value in society, but if there is one place we should be spending more money as a country it is education. Whether that means high teacher salaries (which would definitely bring better teachers over the long run, sorry that we can't all teach completely out of the goodness of our hearts) or providing more resources to our most under-performing schools, money is not the only answer, but most solutions do require more of it to really work.
Every dollar spent to directly improve education would probably save $5 or $10 down the road. But no, let's just expect to fix education by keeping spending and resources exactly where they are right now. Great idea.
I've been on both sides of the fence for an equal amount of time, and trust me, the grass IS greener.
Education is arguably the most important factor in improving society today. Recently read that when the Gates Foundation was deciding how they would give away their money in the US they did a couple years worth of research to figure out what area would be the most effective for making a long-term societal impact, they came up with education.
As a nation, we mis-spend billions and billions of dollars on reactive programs like prisons, welfare, medicare and wars. The one area we can leverage to reduce spending in many of those areas later: education. Students who finish high school are so much less likely to end up in prison or on the streets. Not to mention they make about $1million more in their lifetime which goes right back into the US economy instead of coming out of our tax dollars in the form of welfare or prison upkeep.
I'm saying that other professions don't have their value in society, but if there is one place we should be spending more money as a country it is education. Whether that means high teacher salaries (which would definitely bring better teachers over the long run, sorry that we can't all teach completely out of the goodness of our hearts) or providing more resources to our most under-performing schools, money is not the only answer, but most solutions do require more of it to really work.
Every dollar spent to directly improve education would probably save $5 or $10 down the road. But no, let's just expect to fix education by keeping spending and resources exactly where they are right now. Great idea.
