Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
No, he didn't (far as I know). But wouldn't it be funny -- and a great relief to folks who hate vouchers but want to support Obama -- if some of the lines that have been liftedfrom MA Gov. Deval Patrick were those ones about Obama being open to vouchers and supportive of charters? Then Obama's progressive supporters could heave a sigh of relief -- but their candidate probably wouldn't be as appealing to independents and moderates.
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Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 9:05 AM
Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
Russo you're getting worse than the traditional media at trying to make a story where there isn't one.
"...a great relief to folks who hate vouchers but want to support Obama..."
Obama has stated clearly that at this point in time, he is pretty firmly against vouchers. There's really nothing more to it. He said if significant evidence were provided that showed vouchers to improve student performance, then he would consider them...which, far from supporting vouchers in their current form, is really just a very rational and reasonable stance to take. Its sort of like, even if you're against stem cell research, if it was suddenly proven to cure some form of cancer, I would hope you might have the sense to change your mind.
Why not post quotes from the candidates position papers on education or their actual opinions on real issues if you want to have a legitimate dialogue here about education in presidential politics?
Instead of rehashing day's old non-stories that most of your readers are already annoyed with after seeing the same misleading headlines at every other major news outlet.
"...a great relief to folks who hate vouchers but want to support Obama..."
Obama has stated clearly that at this point in time, he is pretty firmly against vouchers. There's really nothing more to it. He said if significant evidence were provided that showed vouchers to improve student performance, then he would consider them...which, far from supporting vouchers in their current form, is really just a very rational and reasonable stance to take. Its sort of like, even if you're against stem cell research, if it was suddenly proven to cure some form of cancer, I would hope you might have the sense to change your mind.
Why not post quotes from the candidates position papers on education or their actual opinions on real issues if you want to have a legitimate dialogue here about education in presidential politics?
Instead of rehashing day's old non-stories that most of your readers are already annoyed with after seeing the same misleading headlines at every other major news outlet.
Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 9:13 AM
Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
hey, charlie --
first off, that was a funny post. come on, now. give me some credit for a february attempt at twisted humor.
second, while others may have overstated what obama said, i haven't.
he said he was not willing to rule vouchers out, which is to be sure a far cry from saying that he supports them but is still a major difference between him and most other democratic candidates and elected officials.
most of them rule it out for various reasons -- constitutional, policy grounds, draining resources from the public system, etc.
for what it's worth, i think it's admirable of him to try and keep an open mind. and i agree with him that vouchers probably won't solve many of our biggest problems.
if he wins, it won't be because he's the perfect liberal candidate. it'll be because he gets out of orthodox politics and brings new folks along. plus which, he's more centrist in a lot of ways than clinton.
ps -- has anyone gotten one of these new "math" questions at the bottom of the comments wrong yet? i almost did. it was 3 + 0. so sad.
first off, that was a funny post. come on, now. give me some credit for a february attempt at twisted humor.
second, while others may have overstated what obama said, i haven't.
he said he was not willing to rule vouchers out, which is to be sure a far cry from saying that he supports them but is still a major difference between him and most other democratic candidates and elected officials.
most of them rule it out for various reasons -- constitutional, policy grounds, draining resources from the public system, etc.
for what it's worth, i think it's admirable of him to try and keep an open mind. and i agree with him that vouchers probably won't solve many of our biggest problems.
if he wins, it won't be because he's the perfect liberal candidate. it'll be because he gets out of orthodox politics and brings new folks along. plus which, he's more centrist in a lot of ways than clinton.
ps -- has anyone gotten one of these new "math" questions at the bottom of the comments wrong yet? i almost did. it was 3 + 0. so sad.
Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 11:39 AM
Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
I disagree with you on this one, I don't think he said he is open to vouchers (present tense), but that he would be open to vouchers provided a sufficient amount of evidence was given to support their positive impact.
For comedy's sake, that would be like saying, I would consider marrying Alexander Russo...if her were an attractive woman with lots of money. If I said that would you tell me that I'm open to the idea of marrying Alexander Russo?
For comedy's sake, that would be like saying, I would consider marrying Alexander Russo...if her were an attractive woman with lots of money. If I said that would you tell me that I'm open to the idea of marrying Alexander Russo?
Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 11:47 AM
Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
dear charlie -
i was hoping you'd finally ask.
i accept, darling! i accept!
-- alexander
i was hoping you'd finally ask.
i accept, darling! i accept!
-- alexander
Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 12:50 PM
Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
Charlie is right about Russo's misleading comments. Obama would be for vouchers if they proved to work better for students, but so far that's not been the case. So he's still against vouchers.
And russo, you've proved once again that you have no gift for comedy. However, you are clearly bent on serving your own need for attention by continuing to work your stupid Obama vouchers angle. Give it up.
And russo, you've proved once again that you have no gift for comedy. However, you are clearly bent on serving your own need for attention by continuing to work your stupid Obama vouchers angle. Give it up.
Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 2:13 PM
Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
Charlie,
As other observers have already pointed out, your problem is that you are taking Russo seriously and treating his political reportage and analysis with undeserved respect. He is merely playing the clown-provocateur. He knows Obama isn't "open to vouchers." He thinks if he stirs the pot, throws in a little beefcake and women in scanty undies, lets proxy Schmidt go off on everyone and anyone, he will grab a few more readers. Maybe he's right. But don't confuse self-marketing with serious discussion on ed politics. You'll have to go elsewhere for that.
As other observers have already pointed out, your problem is that you are taking Russo seriously and treating his political reportage and analysis with undeserved respect. He is merely playing the clown-provocateur. He knows Obama isn't "open to vouchers." He thinks if he stirs the pot, throws in a little beefcake and women in scanty undies, lets proxy Schmidt go off on everyone and anyone, he will grab a few more readers. Maybe he's right. But don't confuse self-marketing with serious discussion on ed politics. You'll have to go elsewhere for that.
Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 2:14 PM
Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
Charlie,
As other observers have already pointed out, your problem is that you are taking Russo seriously and treating his political reportage and analysis with undeserved respect. He is merely playing the clown-provocateur. He knows Obama isn't "open to vouchers." He thinks if he stirs the pot, throws in a little beefcake and women in scanty undies, lets proxy Schmidt go off on everyone and anyone, he will grab a few more readers. Maybe he's right. But don't confuse self-marketing with serious discussion on ed politics. You'll have to go elsewhere for that.
As other observers have already pointed out, your problem is that you are taking Russo seriously and treating his political reportage and analysis with undeserved respect. He is merely playing the clown-provocateur. He knows Obama isn't "open to vouchers." He thinks if he stirs the pot, throws in a little beefcake and women in scanty undies, lets proxy Schmidt go off on everyone and anyone, he will grab a few more readers. Maybe he's right. But don't confuse self-marketing with serious discussion on ed politics. You'll have to go elsewhere for that.
Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 2:27 PM
Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
barnard --
"clown-provocateur" -- i like that. to be sure, that's one of my roles. alas, that's not all i'm up to here.
obama could have closed the door on vouchers
instead he played coy -- like politicians who say they "aren't currently planning" to run for office.
he was keeping his options open, and signaling to moderates and conservatives -- not to speak of parents whose children are trapped in failing schools -- that he gets them. that it's not all about protecting the system, or the teachers.
blame me for not being funny. but don't blame me that your guy isn't the guy you want him to be, that he's not the community organizer he once was.
"clown-provocateur" -- i like that. to be sure, that's one of my roles. alas, that's not all i'm up to here.
obama could have closed the door on vouchers
instead he played coy -- like politicians who say they "aren't currently planning" to run for office.
he was keeping his options open, and signaling to moderates and conservatives -- not to speak of parents whose children are trapped in failing schools -- that he gets them. that it's not all about protecting the system, or the teachers.
blame me for not being funny. but don't blame me that your guy isn't the guy you want him to be, that he's not the community organizer he once was.
Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 5:56 PM
Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
i don't know if this should be considered a clarification from obama, or a plea for a do-over:
http://scholasticadministrator.typepad.com/thisweekineducation/2008/02/obama-clarifies.html
http://scholasticadministrator.typepad.com/thisweekineducation/2008/02/obama-clarifies.html
Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 5:58 PM
Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
Alexander:
"Obama could have closed the door on vouchers instead he played coy...don't blame me that your guy isn't the guy you want him to be"
Obama's greatest weakness is that he has the capacity for, and a tendency towards including, depth, subtlety, and detail in his thinking, his views, and his speech. Unfortunately, almost all political analysts, most of the media, and nearly the entire public lack these important characteristics. Mr. Russo is doing nothing unusual here; creating fiction by attempting to divine what a political figure 'really meant' is pretty standard fare.
Charlie's take was right on the money and I'll reiterate. While I am personally vehemently opposed to vouchers, and always been, I would be foolish to retain that view should vouchers prove to unequivocally boost the education of a city's (or nation's) youth. So, in the world in which Mr. Russo lives I am 'open to vouchers'. Fine. I'd like to vacation in that world some day. It must be fascinating. I've never understood the desire to dumb down an argument into black and white. It's not useful, interesting, or illuminating.
If Obama was still a community organizer, no one would bother parsing his words into absurdity. It's part of the price he pays to run for President. There are things about which reasonable people may disagree and perhaps, even with Mr. Russo's creative take on the issue, this is one of them. But Mr. Russo's analysis, despite his concerns to the contrary, doesn't change the fact that Obama is exactly who I, and many others, want him to be - a highly intelligent, critical thinker with the ability to effectively utilize reason, rationality, and an open mind. That's something we rarely see in the media or the blogs, and obviously something we haven't seen on the national political stage in years.
"Obama could have closed the door on vouchers instead he played coy...don't blame me that your guy isn't the guy you want him to be"
Obama's greatest weakness is that he has the capacity for, and a tendency towards including, depth, subtlety, and detail in his thinking, his views, and his speech. Unfortunately, almost all political analysts, most of the media, and nearly the entire public lack these important characteristics. Mr. Russo is doing nothing unusual here; creating fiction by attempting to divine what a political figure 'really meant' is pretty standard fare.
Charlie's take was right on the money and I'll reiterate. While I am personally vehemently opposed to vouchers, and always been, I would be foolish to retain that view should vouchers prove to unequivocally boost the education of a city's (or nation's) youth. So, in the world in which Mr. Russo lives I am 'open to vouchers'. Fine. I'd like to vacation in that world some day. It must be fascinating. I've never understood the desire to dumb down an argument into black and white. It's not useful, interesting, or illuminating.
If Obama was still a community organizer, no one would bother parsing his words into absurdity. It's part of the price he pays to run for President. There are things about which reasonable people may disagree and perhaps, even with Mr. Russo's creative take on the issue, this is one of them. But Mr. Russo's analysis, despite his concerns to the contrary, doesn't change the fact that Obama is exactly who I, and many others, want him to be - a highly intelligent, critical thinker with the ability to effectively utilize reason, rationality, and an open mind. That's something we rarely see in the media or the blogs, and obviously something we haven't seen on the national political stage in years.
Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 11:07 PM
Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
the thing is, politicians in obama's situation don't get to have intelligent, nuanced thoughts. and they (should) know this. that's why nearly everything they say is so calculated - because it's going to be parsed.
plus which -- i really believe this -- obama is testing the waters on vouchers, or struggling to hold himself back, or something. maybe he just doesn't like being told what to say. but there's something going on there, i think.
then again, i think that 50 years from now people are going to look at us strange when we tell them that parents couldn't use public funds to send their kids wherever they wanted to. K12 education may not be any better than it is now, but that line will be gone.
plus which -- i really believe this -- obama is testing the waters on vouchers, or struggling to hold himself back, or something. maybe he just doesn't like being told what to say. but there's something going on there, i think.
then again, i think that 50 years from now people are going to look at us strange when we tell them that parents couldn't use public funds to send their kids wherever they wanted to. K12 education may not be any better than it is now, but that line will be gone.
Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:08 AM
Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
The White House
Let’s be serious and use our imagination. If The Kennedy
White House was Camelot what are we going to call the
Obama white House?
Let’s be serious and use our imagination. If The Kennedy
White House was Camelot what are we going to call the
Obama white House?
Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:30 AM
Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
Maybe he's just going to say "present" like he does on anything that might make people take sides. Pretty slick, never leave a vote trail and then everybody thinks you are on their side. That's how we get great leaders like Marilyn and Barak. Don't look now but they are both bad for us.
He sends his kids to private school. His wife gets a huge salary from UC Hospitals ($1000 a day). Maybe that contributes to the high cost of health care?
What do we really know about him besides he's hopeful and likes change.
Marilyn likes change too. Like firing an elected union officer and hiring a non-union member to replace him.
He sends his kids to private school. His wife gets a huge salary from UC Hospitals ($1000 a day). Maybe that contributes to the high cost of health care?
What do we really know about him besides he's hopeful and likes change.
Marilyn likes change too. Like firing an elected union officer and hiring a non-union member to replace him.
Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 12:03 PM
Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
Ihatetheupc wrote:
What do we really know about [Obama] besides he's hopeful and likes change. Marilyn likes change too. Like firing an elected union officer and hiring a non-union member to replace him.
We know he's intelligent, thoughtful, critical, and inspiring. We know he believes in community activism. We know he believes in change from the bottom up. We know he was more interested in organizing locally than in pursuing a massive salary as a corporate lawyer. Marilyn? Well...not so much.
And Obama has plenty of opinions and votes out there. A simple internet search will help you find them. He is far more than what gets portrayed in the popular media.
What do we really know about [Obama] besides he's hopeful and likes change. Marilyn likes change too. Like firing an elected union officer and hiring a non-union member to replace him.
We know he's intelligent, thoughtful, critical, and inspiring. We know he believes in community activism. We know he believes in change from the bottom up. We know he was more interested in organizing locally than in pursuing a massive salary as a corporate lawyer. Marilyn? Well...not so much.
And Obama has plenty of opinions and votes out there. A simple internet search will help you find them. He is far more than what gets portrayed in the popular media.
Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 4:22 PM
Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
Well I think if you support charter schools you now will pretty much have to support vouchers and vouchers for parochial schools in particular. Take a look at the front page story in the Feb 13 edition of Education Week "Catholic Closures Linked to Growth of City Charters." By the way just because Obama supports vouchers does not mean Congress would pass such laws if he were elected.
But here is a question for all of the charter supporters out there. If Obama got a wide ranging voucher law passed including for parochial schools would charters like UNO and Nobel Street be put out of bussiness? Based on what I read in Ed Week I would guess yes.
But here is a question for all of the charter supporters out there. If Obama got a wide ranging voucher law passed including for parochial schools would charters like UNO and Nobel Street be put out of bussiness? Based on what I read in Ed Week I would guess yes.
Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:58 PM
Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
Two things: Alexander, I'm really sorry that you're so cynical that you don't think a politician can have "intelligent, nuanced thoughts." And I think you're wrong, I think it is the media that seems to lack the ability to have "intelligent, nuanced thoughts." And finally, perhaps a politician can't have "intelligent, nuanced thoughts," but I would hope that a leader can. And I know I'm setting myself up to be called naive and an idealist (I've been called far worse, by the way) but the only way we're going to get ourselves out of the s***storm that we've gotten into in the last eight years or so is if we at some point have a president who prioritizes being a leader before being a politician.
Tom, you already made my case for me about why charter school supporters would actually be against vouchers. Whereas charter schools were designed to promote innovation in public schools (I'm not saying that's necessarily what they are all doing right now, but what they were intended to do and what many who support them would still like to see them do) vouchers would potentially put a strangle hold on the public education system that would make charter schools look like a walk in the park to all of you charter opponents. And just for the record, its not charter schools that are destroying public education in this city, it is your civic leaders who are irresponsibly closing schools and your teachers union who seems to be doing very little about it. Even if there weren't charter schools, these closed schools would be replaced with performance schools or contract schools or whatever other kind of school Arne and the mayor would dream up.
Tom, you already made my case for me about why charter school supporters would actually be against vouchers. Whereas charter schools were designed to promote innovation in public schools (I'm not saying that's necessarily what they are all doing right now, but what they were intended to do and what many who support them would still like to see them do) vouchers would potentially put a strangle hold on the public education system that would make charter schools look like a walk in the park to all of you charter opponents. And just for the record, its not charter schools that are destroying public education in this city, it is your civic leaders who are irresponsibly closing schools and your teachers union who seems to be doing very little about it. Even if there weren't charter schools, these closed schools would be replaced with performance schools or contract schools or whatever other kind of school Arne and the mayor would dream up.
Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:25 PM
Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
Initially, I thought that Obama was totally against vocuhers. The difference between him and other politicians is that if he is presented with a good argument, he can be swayed. Now, he is on the fence about vouchers. Perhaps, when he speaks to enough people that support vouchers, then he will change his mind. I send one of my children to a great neighborhood school and the other to a selective enrollment school. I prefer the neighborhood school, but my child's classroom is overcrowded. Now, I have to pay for a tutor twice a week. My child that is in the slective enrollment school needs can not be met because there is no more room at my neighborhood school to start an accelerated program for children of higher aptitudes. If more money was spent to add an addition to the school to reduce class size, I wouldn't want a voucher to send him to a parochial school or a private school. I also certainly would not have my two children at different schools. If the federal goverment would equalize school funding throughout every district in the USA and make per pupil spending the same then maybe public schools would have a chance. A child's educational experience should not be based on his/her address, which is fundamentally the way schools are funded in Illinois. School funding reform is needed in Chicago, Illinois and in the USA. I am pro- fixing the way we fund education in the USA. Whether it is by pro-choice (vouchers, charters, etc.) or by giving school districts the money they need to be successful!
Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 3:58 AM
Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
Sorry to join this discussion so late. Obama's waffling on vouchers is a figment of Alexander's imagination. He knows very well that Obama is now and has always been a voucher opponent. But I have to hand it to Russo. He and a group of voucher supporters who originally spread this rumor, were able to provoke this strong statement from the Obama Campaign. If you haven't already, you can read it here: http://www2.edweek.org/media/obama_vouchers_response.pdf.
Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 1:25 PM
Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
I don't think vouchers will catch on in most parts of the nation due to the religious issue. When considering private schools, you are frequently talking about religious schools--Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Jewish, Hindu, et al. Even with the parents receiving the voucher and then turning it over to the school, thus rendering moot the Constitutional issues, I don't think the public would support it. For one, there is a very real religious divide in the nation between those that are religious and those that aren't and further divides between those who follow specific religious faiths from those who follow other ones such as the anti-Islam Evangelical Christians (not all ECs feel that way I'm sure) I've seen and the anti-Mormonism seen during the GOP primary. I don't see those divides being bridged enough to enable vouchers that could go to the religious school of the parent's choosing. And if you eliminate religious schools, how many secular private schools are there out there?
Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 1:55 PM
Obama "Borrowed" Lines About Supporting Charters & Being Open To Vouchers
for a long time, constitutional concerns were considered a big obstacle to vouchers. and indeed the perception of church-state violations remains real. however, the legal basis for the concern seems to have disappeared recently, i think on the basis that the money is given to the parents, not the schools, and also because there is already public money going to private and parochial colleges. someone else will know the legal issues better, but i think it has changed recently.
here's a 2002 story about the decision -- from the NYT:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C01E7D6133EF93BA15755C0A9649C8B63
obviously vouchers haven't proliferated since then -- apparently because private and parochials aren't sure they want in to a public accountability system, and also because the word voucher has gotten so many negative connotations.
more popular of late? parochial schools converting into public charter schools.
here's a 2002 story about the decision -- from the NYT:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C01E7D6133EF93BA15755C0A9649C8B63
obviously vouchers haven't proliferated since then -- apparently because private and parochials aren't sure they want in to a public accountability system, and also because the word voucher has gotten so many negative connotations.
more popular of late? parochial schools converting into public charter schools.
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